Uzodinma Iweala: Thank you very much.

Fischer: Nice having you here. First of all, what made you write this book?

Iweala: Well, I mean, I guess like anybody, I was curious and I think like any writer that's that that's what happens. There's something that interests you and you want to find out more about it and then you want to sort of express what you know. So I was in high school and I read, an article about child soldiers in West Africa, that Sierra Leone or Liberia. And I didn't know as much at the time. And so I wanted to find out more. So I started sort of reading and writing, about that then just, you know, initially just to organize my thoughts. And then when I got to university, I met a former child soldier, who gave us, talk at my school and had a conversation with me. She probably wouldn't remember it, but it it really had a profound impact on me because, you know, we were able to go back and forth and I was able to hear much, much more about her life and experiences. And that really pushed me towards trying to understand in a much deeper fashion through more research and then through writing.

Fischer: You call the book "Beasts of No Nation." Who are the beasts?

Iweala: Well, so this is the thing. I mean, I think the title comes from a Falak Kuti song. Falak Kuti was a Nigerian musician, Afrobeat musician who died in 1997, actually of HIV AIDS. But he was, I mean, I guess people call him the Nigerian Bob Marley or the Afrobeat beat version of Bob Marley. Very songs that are are what you would term protest literature, songs about political issues, about social issues, often cast in a very interesting poetic and humorous light sometimes. He has a song called beast of no nation where he talks about human rights essentially and the lack thereof in certain political structures. Mostly, I think he's talking about South Africa at the time. This song was, was produced in 1982, but he has this line, this uprising. The song is called beast of no nation, and he has this line, this uprising will bring out the beast in us. And for me, what that what that says, what that talks about is this idea a number of things. One is this idea of how we tend to turn people even, you know, rightly or wrongly. And I think there's this tendency to to turn people involved in these conflict situations as sort of savage or whatever. And the whole point is when you read the book, hopefully, you get that, look, that's not it, that we can't just label people like this. We can't just write people off like this because there are people, you know, they aren't.

Fischer: Yeah. I'm thinking of Agu. Right. I mean, he's an abyss for me, actually. I feel pity for him. Right.

Iweala: So, I mean, that's the thing. Because, I mean, the hope is that you start with with that and then you move towards understanding, then you move towards this idea as well. I mean, like, look, Agro is a fully functioning human being. He's not somebody that you should just look at. Do you see what I'm saying? And say, wow. You know? And for for us, I mean, I think it's this idea that, look, we all could have this within us and that we're not so separate from from people involved in these situations, which is, I think, something that is not stated enough and that's not acknowledged enough. You know? And then, of course, the idea that it's not set in any one particular place, that this is happening all around the world and that in a lot of cases, these people are are sometimes, I guess you could say, stateless. They're not represented by anybody. They're not that that has their interest in mind. You know, it takes it to that next level. But really, in my mind, the idea is a tribute to Fela and his activism and his use of literature, of music, of art to talk about these really important issues that I think we should all be aware of.

Fischer: Agua himself, he seems to be intelligent. He can read. At home he's even called the professor, and sometimes I have to feel for his age he's like a philosopher, especially when he describes nature's reaction to the war. Why doesn't he speak any better English?

Iweala: There are a few things. One is when I when I sort of was doing research about this and listening to and reading the way that children were speaking about their experiences, there was a definite deepness, a profound understanding of the condition. And I think, you know, you want to show that. At the same time, there's there has a there's a lot to do with the fact that education and what not is stopped at a certain level if you're conscripted or forced to fight and all of a sudden, you know, your your normal educational progression is broken. So, I mean, it's there's a tension there. Do you you see what I'm saying? And, like, you want to I wanted to show that in the writing. At the same time, I think when you're from a country, for example, in West Africa, there is this there's the colloquial, there's the vernacular. Right? And there's what you learn in school. And a lot of times people can switch back and forth very easily. And that's one of the things that I was trying to show the passages, I think, in here where he speaks his his the way that he speaks is proper, you know, or more proper than others. And there are other passages where it's definitely more colloquial. And I think there's, again, that tension with any sort of spoken word in or creolized language. People can slip in back and forth very quickly. And that's essentially, I think, what gives these places and these, you know, a place like Nigeria, for example, where my family is from, that tension adds a certain flavor, adds a certain dimension and depth to to the language and brings out a whole new poetry that I think is important. And, you know, so it's those again, it's both attention on the literary side and also the Speaker2: actual or what you see when you do the research and what you hear about how children construct their situation.

Fischer: So can we say that most of his English is a Nigerian English?

Iweala: You could say that it's based off of that. I mean, it's not Pidgin English as they would speak in Nigeria, but it's based on that. And it's it's a constructed dialogue for the purpose of the book, but the roots are are definitely Pidgin.

Fischer: Mhmm. And Abu learns in his village through dances that man has to fight. After church, the children even play soldiers, so violence is a part in his early life. What do you wanna express with these facts?

Iweala: I guess what I'm going for there is again this this idea that, you know, we're very close. This idea of ritualized violence that in every single one of our societies, not just in a situation or a place like where Agua is from, but around the world, this idea of ritualized violence and exposure to violence. I mean, I'm sure you could probably, when you were younger, imagine some of the things that sort of prime you and put you get you ready for expression of violence. I mean, I can think of so many things, whether it's from sports games, you know, to, watching Hollywood movies, to this general idea of how boys are supposed to act or how and this expression of aggression. And I think that's, you know, it's it's for every single one of our cultures, whether we're American, European, you know, African, Asian, you know, to use broad strokes, there is this this ritualization of violence and this exposure to that at a very young age.

Fischer: The goal of the group, if there is any, for me seems to be to kill. And in the town with the prostitutes, the lieutenant gets killed, but the group does not react. Why do they not? Why don't they kill the women there?

Iweala: I think there are a number of things. One is I want to distinguish sort of between the goal of the group and the and Aga's perceived goal of the group. So one of the the biggest tensions in writing was how do you how would he see it? Would Agu really know the political desires and the political goals of the of the larger group, or would he be more attuned to the to the violence that they experienced? So in my mind, this is something that's not in the book because it's written from Mago's perspective. As as you do see within all of these situations, there is a larger political goal for any one of these groups. But I think if you're a child, what you see is not that larger political goal. It's going to be very hard if you're not necessarily exposed to all of that discussion and to understand why it is you're doing what you're doing, why you're being so brutal, why you're being so violent. So there's that tension. Then as for the lieutenant, I mean, it's funny, when, when I started writing, I mean, I think there needed to be, you know, I wanted to have somebody who would express it, sort of another side of the commandant, but not be the commandant, you know, and another side of this command structure.

weala: And I think, you know, there is this very the commandant in my mind is supposed to be a charismatic, you know, brutal, but has flashes of this kindness, of this humanity, of this tenderness towards his people. Lieutenant is is sort of like a, I guess, a buffoon you would say, and pretty irritating to the rest of the troops. So it's kind of that thing. And at the point where they where they are in in the in in the book and in the story, I think there's this general fatigue, this general tiredness, you know. So you wonder why they don't react. I think it's because of all those factors. Additionally, I wanted there to be this sort of thing, this that there to show that there are boundaries. I mean, you know, these guys do have they there it's not just brutality. There is a reasoning. There is an understanding. There is an ethics. And I think for them to go in here at this point in time and to kill all of these women wouldn't have worked and so that's how you get, you get sort of this guy kind of deserved it is that the attitude and when we're done with that.

Fischer: Why doesn't any member of the group deserve it?

weala: I think it's pretty, you know, obviously not speaking from any experience, but just from reading and research, I think it probably is relatively hard to if you think about it. Again, for any group situation, there's there's a dynamic that keeps you in And it is, it does become a sort of family. It does become a sort of group that you're with that, that holds you, that supports you, that pushes you along. And to lose that, I think it can be very devastating, whether it's your sports team or it's your your company if you're a soldier. That's one thing. Then the second thing is resources issues. I mean, to think if you're in a situation like this where everything is scarce and, you know, at least you're part of this group and you have access to certain things, you have access to food, you have access to whatever it is, that's gonna be a pretty strong pull, I think, in my mind that will keep you around, that will keep you engaged. Then I think, you know, one one other thing to consider is probably fear of retribution or reprisal. I mean, if you leave and desert and people are threatening to do x or y to you if you do so, you know, you might think twice, if you value your life that, you know, maybe I might I should probably stay with these guys rather than risk, you know, slipping away and not having anybody guarantee whether I can eat or not. And also having to worry about whether or not these guys are gonna be pretty angry at me when or if they find me.

Fischer: Uzo, thank you very much.

Iweala: Thank you very much.